Connected

Kimmy

We've been having conversations recently about feminism.

Giarne

We have indeed.

Kimmy

You identify as a feminist.

Giarne

Yes. And you don't.

Kimmy

And I don't. Yes.

Giarne

When you very first told me I remember being like, whoa, you're not a feminist because there's so many things that we do have in common. And and like really values based things that we have in. Common. So I would love. To have a conversation about it, about why you haven't identified as a feminist

Kimmy

and I'd really love to find out from you. How do you define it? Yes. How are you, a feminist? What do you do that makes you a feminist? What do you believe? Yeah. So I think we're gonna have a juicy Conversation. It's gonna be so good. Hi, I'm Jan.

*Introduction*

Giarne

I like, most of pop culture at the moment I'm a little bit obsessed with. The Barbie movie. And so I've been. Yeah, really exploring some more of those feminist themes and have loved how it's brought some more of it into the spotlight.

Kimmy

Yeah, I'd really like. To start the conversation by framing the definition of feminism from your perspective.

Giarne

Yes, I think language is so, so important. When we talk about different concepts. I think I have always had. A like probably a narrow understanding of feminism to start with in that. A I thought. All women were, and they're not. And BI think for me it. Had always meant that women. Deserve to have equal. Rights to men, but in particularly in, like some of the discussions that I've had with other other women. I've discovered that. There's so many different definitions of feminism. So, like a radical feminist, is more likely to. You have a different view to someone who identifies as a. Feminist or liberal feminist? I think I probably fall more into a liberal Marx version of feminism. So for me, I. I believe in equality of sexes.

Kimmy
What does that mean?

Giarne

It's about that. Men, women, trans, whoever. Whatever you identify as deserves to have equal rights as. Each other and that treating someone differently based on their gender is not fair. I think that reality is we live in a world where people are treated differently for their. Gender and I. Don't know that I go ohh feminism's going to change that. I mean it would be beautiful. If there were some change. But I I this is going to sound so pessimistic, I don't envisage a world where it is going to. Be fully equal.

Kimmy

I think one of the sticking points for me in feminism from that definition is that I do see a value in treating people differently based on gender do I see? Value in disadvantaging someone, absolutely not so, for example, having a lower wage because you're a female. No, that's a disadvantage. That's yeah, that's not OK opening the. Door for a woman. Or a offering to hold a heavy bag for a woman and not maybe you may or may.

Giarne

Chivalry. Yeah. Yeah, I appreciate That

Kimmy
I think that's really beautiful. I think it acknowledges it's a it's a sign of respect and it also acknowledges that we have differences like we have genetic differences. So I think that's where this idea of equality not to be treated differently, denies our femininity.

Giarne

MM.

Kimmy

We're just exclusively talking about male or female gender, and I'm I can only speak to that because I'm I identify as female, so that's why I'll speak.

Giarne

To that, it's fascinating. To me, yeah, cause I also know we both work in our day jobs in the disability. Race, and I know persons with disabilities who would love if someone held the door open for them. And I also know people. Who would be really angry? If someone held the door open for them and I actually see the same thing for feminism and the understanding of like chivalry versus are you? Assuming that I can't. Like and I think it very much varies person to person. The take away I've had from some of the discussions we've been been having, particularly about feminism with different people, is that we all have different definitions of what it means and that so much of the. Vitriol that comes has has come because we all have different definitions of what that actually means to be a feminist, I asked on my social media pages. Do you identify as a feminist? And I had some people who said absolutely no and and I was like, OK, tell me more. And they're like, because I don't. Men. And I'm like for me, that's not the value. Like I don't actually. I don't. I wouldn't say I hate men, so that would be my definition of what being a feminist is. But, and this is sort of where I'm going to get. A little bit. On my soapbox, like we talk about the patriarchy and I guess like we also need to have a definition. For what that is. Yeah. Because I would then go. OK, so why is there a negative connotation with the word feminist? Who does it serve to take a word that was supposed to empower women and make it something that you wouldn't want to identify with?

Kimmy

Yeah, yeah, that's a really good question. And I think for me, that happened with extremist feminism. Yes, where all of a sudden it dehumanised and devalued men. I'm not comfortable with that. I would call myself a humanist rather than a feminist. Yeah. And the other thing that didn't really sit well for me was it was very contradictory. So you would have a bunch of women fighting for female rights.

Giarne

I love that.

Kimmy

And then not simply.

Giarne

Supporting one another. Ohh God yeah.

Kimmy

And so do I wanna belong to a tribe like that? No, I don't wanna belong to a tribe like that. I'm not saying that all. Feminists are like, no, no.

Giarne

You know what you were saying?

Kimmy

But that's certainly not. But yeah, I think that's that's a lot of what I was seeing that pendulum swing and then the forgetting of what does it actually.

Giarne

Mean. What are we here?

Kimmy

For. Yeah, and what does it mean to value women? And to promote a value of of women. Essentially, if feminism for me, was if it was about valuing women to the same extent that we value men, we we're valuing them in different ways. We have different roles in my view. Then I would be on board.

Giarne

That's fascinating. The other interesting thing that. I that I had from when I spoke to different people, including yourself, Jimmy. Was that? We all wanted better treatment of women, yeah. You know, we might not be able to 100% agree on what a definition for every single person could agree on and say Yep. That's it. But they were all going, yeah. Absolutely, I've been. Treated differently because of my gender in a way that has not. Made me feel. Comfortable or safe? Yes or safe? Absolutely respected or I've been paid differently.

Kimmy

Yeah, yeah.

Giarne

I've, you know, had a negative experience in that space. And so I think when we start talking about this stuff, we have to acknowledge the flip side of that, which is the privilege of not having had that experience. Yeah, my husband said to me when we had our daughter that he had a taste of what it must be like to be discriminated against. Because of gender. Because when we had her, you know, we were in hospital for quite quite a fair bit of. The first two or three weeks. And all of the doctors and nurses and everyone will only talk to me. And so he would be there and I would be overwhelmed and they'd be going. When was the last feed? And I'm sleep deprived and going, I don't know. And he'd answer the question and then they'd ask the next question to me. And he's like, I'm right here. I'm, like, caring parent. I involved. And because I'm not the mother, I don't matter. And we even had a. Child health nurse turned up at our home, who had said I think she was only six weeks old. And she was like, oh, you know, it's so hard organising dinners and try to look after the baby and everything. You know, men just don't think about that. They get home from work and go, where's dinner? And I was like, I haven't cooked in six weeks. My husband has done. All of it. And right now I'm sitting on the couch talking to you and. He's changing the. Baby like she's just been weighed and he's putting her nappy back on and her clothes back on so. They're like, I think the assumptions can work both ways, but it was really fascinating to see the flip side of what had always been my experience of being treated in a less than favorable light because I was female. I wonder how much of the things that. Feminists, who often can be described as angry. They are trying to say, hey, look at this thing, do you even realize that this thing is different? Because when we have experienced something so many times, it just becomes normal. And until you look at. The privilege of someone who hasn't had that experience, you don't realize that it's different.

Kimmy

Yeah, I've certainly had experiences where I feel like I've been disadvantaged in the way that I've been treated by men. And that I've been treated in a way that I wouldn't have been treated had I been a fellow man. Yes, and in multiple contexts. Yeah. Yeah. And I felt the feeling of this is a clash of my. Values. Yeah, it it doesn't actually feel kind. I haven't ever felt. Like I'm going to be a feminist because of that. And that's really interesting for me until recently. And we've had conversations about this one incident in particular. Pillar at my son's soccer training, where it was very overtly obvious that I was being discriminated against because I was a female. Then I I I don't know. Something can be shifted and I thought, you know, I I actually understand how women could get to the point where they're fully identifying as feminists. And that then leads me to my next question and that is you identify as a feminist and then how does that impact on the way that you behave and act?

Giarne

I think part of it ties back to the privilege you were talking about before. I observe the world through the lens of looking for the potential to either be disadvantaged or like if I'm gonna be treated differently, I'm gonna point it out. So I'm kind of like, I'm not just going about my business going. The rules are the rules. That society set and they dictated them and. That's just the way. It is. I'm like, actively going about it going, hey, there's a thing here that's different. Has anybody else noticed this thing that's different? And do we think it has to be like this? I remember shopping for shoes for my daughter and I was looking for. Ones that were going to be. Easy for her to play with that. Would support foot development that. She could run around that weren't going. Completely trashed in two seconds and I couldn't find them. And in the baby shoe section there were shoes for gendered boys, you know, they. Were typically loose. Wolves. Yeah. Sneakers or they were brown. Or they were cocky green or. And then there were the shoes for girls, and the shoes for girls with sandals, with the famous souls. Or they were like they just were not practical shoes. To play in. So you could either have practical shoes to play in. You get a pretty shoes, but you. Couldn't have both and I remember. Really. Like I'm just so angry and I'm like. And I know. Like people have like this really like. Stereotype of, like feminists are. Really angry. And I was like, you know. What I'm actually. ******* angry about. This because why should we have to choose?

Kimmy

Yeah, I get that anger as a parent. Yeah, I've experienced that with my boys. I've got two beautiful boys I'm raising. And for me, it's such a privilege to be raising hopefully one day. Really beautiful men. But we actually literally changed primary schools for the most part because we felt that the teachers were sexist. Against boys pro girls. And projecting their feminism onto these little kids in a very.

Giarne

OK, how did that?

Kimmy

Look. Yeah, the boys would get. Not just my boys, but in general in trouble for things that the girls wouldn't say. For example, the girls could hit the boys or throw sounds at the boys or rocks at the boys. They wouldn't get in trouble, but the boy did that. To another boy. They would get in trouble and they. Would almost get you. Know really severely in trouble if they did it. To another girl.

Giarne

Yeah. See, I don't feel that's OK.

Kimmy

No, and I think there's. So I've seen. I've seen the damage that unconscious and unconscious. Yeah, and unconscious attention to the rights of women have had.

Giarne

Hmm. Yeah, I do think we have a tendency as a community to overcorrect.

Kimmy

True, I agree.

Giarne

And so I was listening to something recently about this exact thing that we have a tendency to overcorrect. And so we tend to go almost the opposite direction of where we need to now fight for the rights of of the underprivileged to a point where we're now discriminating against another group of people as a result. So like there's parts of. Me that go. No, I don't. I don't agree with that. At all. And there's also. Parts that go I really. I'm really glad that the topic is being discussed and I'm also saddened that those little boys out there who are being taught a double standard in the.

Kimmy

Opposite way and I think it's very I I guess. I realise it because I really highly value men. I absolutely love men and I've. Got my 2 little boys. And it's it's a real thing that men and teenagers and little boys are almost being socialized to feel ashamed of being a boy or being male. And this whole concept of toxic masculinity. Which I absolutely. Know exists 100% but actually we need our men. They have some kind of great as well. Not to hurt us, but they need to have. They're biologically wired.

Giarne

They have more testosterone than those.

Kimmy

Yeah, yeah. And I'm not saying I'm not condoning the use of that or harm on on men or women, but I I just. Yeah, I I wonder about the damage in depriving each gender. All gender groups. Yeah. In healthy ways. Yeah.

Giarne

Opportunities to express themselves.

Kimmy

And that goes beyond male female.

Giarne

Essentially, it comes back to people having the opportunity to express what feels. Right for them.

Kimmy

Yeah. And to have their needs met too, yes, I need to have an equal pay. Yes, sometimes I also need men to lead me because I actually just wanna surrender into my femininity and be creative. That's a need I have sometimes.

Giarne

Do you think that that's surrounding to femininity or do you think that's the give and take of a relationship?

Kimmy

No, I would say it's surrendering into my femininity because I've experienced that in the context of even being around strange. Others. So sometimes I just if I'm lost, for example, and I go up to someone and they happen to be male. Can you just please tell me where to go? Can you lead the way? Because I can't think right now. And I just need to surrender into this. And I just need you to take care of this for me. And I feel don't feel not strong for doing that. I actually feel really empowered for being able to say, you know what you've got this. You know how to lead in this way, and I'm gonna let you. Because right now I don't want to.

Giarne

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kimmy

That's one example.

Giarne

I think that is a really good example of that. We can have different needs at different times.

Kimmy

Yeah, absolutely. There needs change.

Giarne

I would frame the same example slightly differently.

Kimmy

Tell me what I'm really interested.

Giarne

I would say, and I I've still exploring this concept myself, I would go. There are definite examples where and this is what I guess what I mean by like we overcorrect sometimes or like and there's the reality is we. Live in a social soup. And you kind of. Can't really get out. Of it like we're still. Soaking in it and a lot of visual. I could go up to somebody. Like let's say I bought a mower and I had bought it by myself because I'm a strong independent woman and. Do you think I could? Lift that thing into the back of. No, I am not strong enough to do it and I had a man come over and offer to help me and I was like, thank you so much. That's lovely for me. I would have been going. That's an example of privilege as a woman that I might be falling into that old fashioned role and that the.

Kimmy

Interesting that you say old.

Giarne

Fashioned. Yeah, traditional role perhaps should be a more appropriate language, but yes, into that role and that is the man who came over to do it for me. I would view him as. Being respectful and kind and even like maybe he's a feminist, if he said, would you like some help with that? He would then be honouring my choice to say yes. Please or no thank.

Kimmy

You see, I prefer him to say, let me help and to just go and do it because I value a man who can lead in healthy ways.

Giarne

Yeah, yeah, because I want him to.

Kimmy

Ask me. Interesting. Yeah. Where does that?

Giarne

I want to have. Probably thinks like maybe is it consent respect me enough as a person, regardless of if I'm a man or a woman, to ask if I need help or not. But I do think, particularly when it's a man coming over to help, I also think part of it's about safety. A strange man is approaching me. Is he a safe? Person like and so him asking can I help you is almost like asking consent to help. But also not taking away my autonomy. If I wanted to be able to do that for myself so that I could do it myself and say I did it, then he didn't take that away from.

Kimmy

Me really interesting.

Giarne

Yeah, like that's my right to my independence.

Kimmy

Yeah, yeah, I get it. Yeah. I mean, there are different situations where I would absolutely need. And want to be consulted. Valid valid.

Giarne

Yeah, totally. And I think I can see value in both. Like we said earlier that there's some people with disabilities who would want them to hold the door open without asking and go how rude that they don't. And other people who would be offended that someone thought they. Couldn't do it themselves.

Kimmy

I think it's the way the behaviour or the gesture is perceived totally and I I think maybe my view is influenced by my understanding of masculinity and femininity and what kind of woman I want to be in relation to a man and vice versa.

Giarne

OK, tell me a little. More about that, what's your understanding like what does being feminine or being masculine mean to you?

Kimmy

Ohh my gosh, this is going to open up a big. Can of. Worms and and go into a whole another topic, but let's dive in and I can't dive in without telling you a story and and I won't divulge details because it does involve someone.

Giarne

OK, I love stories.

Kimmy

Else. So I want to. Respect his privacy. Yeah, but for a long time, I was in a relationship with. A man where? He was very in his feminine and by that I mean he did not want to lead. He did not take charge. He did not make decisions. He didn't problem solve. He was very surrendered by.

Giarne

Isn't that interesting? Cause I would. I would be like he was a man who and then described his behaviour. But I wouldn't have said he's a. Man, who was in his femininity.

Kimmy

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think.

Giarne

Anyway, continue.

We have different definitions for.

Kimmy

Yeah, and frameworks. Yeah. Frameworks. Yeah. So that, that meant that I had to go more into my masculinity, which is the way that I would frame it.

Giarne

Sure, yeah, absolutely. And we continue with your beautiful. Story, sorry. That's how you're definitely.

Kimmy

So I had to take charge. I had to sort things out, you know? And it took me way out of being able to surrender and feel safe. And I think this touches on. Yeah, this touches on a thing where if I am around a man who doesn't embody his masculinity thoroughly enough or in a healthy way, I do not feel safe. And I can't let my guard down. And I can't actually really flourish as a human in that person's presence because I'm in.

Giarne

I feel safe.

Kimmy

Self protect mode.

Giarne

That's interesting. Yeah. Fascinating. Yeah, there's definitely something there. And I wonder how much of it's to do with our different experiences of men and women in our histories, too, like, and particularly when you're growing up, if you have witnessed different examples of what it is to be feminine or masculine or, you know, a man or a woman.
That's not. But then And what made you feel safe as a child? Yeah, it makes sense to me that then how that would reflect in your adulthood and in your relationships later on.

Kimmy

Yeah, and I've definitely experienced men who have taken charge inappropriately and have completely been so disrespectful to the women around them, so. Massive have really taken away their autonomy and their rights. To me, that's not masculinity. No, that's just rudeness and disrespect and entitlement, yeah.

Giarne

Same there. Yeah, go there. Agree on that definition, yes. Yeah. I grew up with a mom who probably identified as a feminist. I say probably because I don't want to speak for her and she's not here to. Speak for herself so. But I definitely felt like that was supporting, you know, my daughter already been to a rally for against sexual abuse like like, I think she would have been maybe seven months old and mom and I both went. It was around the. Britney Higgins? Yeah. And we went to one of. Those and I was. Like baby protest. So.

Kimmy

Kind of like photo in the show notes, yeah.

Giarne
Exactly, yeah.
So I think like I grew up with that and at the same time, I had a dad who would take charge, would be supportive and I knew that if I needed. Help I had. That. Mm-hmm. But I didn't feel like it took away from me. And so I don't know. Maybe my experiences of. That then were outside of at home. Where I was. Treated differently, but it still happened within family units. You know, grandparents who would treat me differently because I was a girl and my cousins were boys and.

Kimmy

Did they tell me about the different treatment? If you, if you don't mind, you don't have to go into detail. But was it? Treated differently or disadvantaged?

Giarne

Both. It would be some cousins would get extra treats or lollies or money, even gifts of money.

Kimmy

Because they were. Because there was, yeah.

Giarne

Your voice. I even had a grandparent, a great grandparent literally say to me. Oh, but. He's a boy. OK, note to self should have been. Born with a penis. A lot of my grandparents and cousins and people like lived in regional Queensland like we we're definitely not city people and so it tends to be more conservative and conservative tends to be more traditional. And so all of those sort of values tend to flow on and some of them, I would say as an adult with my own. Views and opinions I don't agree with and. Some of. Them I go. OK, that's helped from some of my opinions either. For or against. So I wonder, when I look back on that sort. Of stuff is some of the times. Where I get angry. I think it's interesting there's such like, vitriol and negative connotations with someone who might be an angry feminist. Like, if you're there going OK, if anger is just another emotion dressed in drag, what is it that's actually going on underneath here? Like I'm ****** because I'm being treated differently for something that I have no control over.

Kimmy

Roll and what's underneath it being ******.

Giarne

Yeah, that's a bloody good question, William hurt. You can't see. Me in the value that I have to offer.

Kimmy

One of the things I love about you is that you do uphold for the value of women. And I think what I'm hearing is that's the foundation of your understanding, your feminism, that you identify with.

Giarne

Yeah, women have so much amazing value to offer the world. I agree that. Men and women have different perspectives because the way we are treated in society is different. The simple reality is I can't know what it feels like to be a man, because I've always been treated as a woman and they can't know what it feels like to me, cause vice versa. And that there's beauty to that. But there's also if you don't acknowledge that there are cons to. Both sides of. That then I think it's unfair to both. Like there it's like, you know, we can sit here and go, I'm a feminist and I've. Been treated differently because I'm a woman. Well, you know what? Not treated differently because I'm interested. In the moments where I get angry, I'm. Like, Yep, damn right, I have every right to be ****** about that. And then on the flip side, I would just as likely stand up and say boys deserve to feel emotions and not be made feel less for having them in the same breath. I would go that. Don't you dare. Shame that little boy, for crying. You let him cry. He's allowed to have feelings just as much as anyone else. If he wants to play with dolls, let him play with dolls. If he wants to, you know. The stay at home Dad, you know? And not just little boys, but men like let's allow men to step. Outside of what the? Traditional role of masculinity looks. Like, just like I feel like we should allow women to step outside of the traditional role of what femininity looks like. So perhaps it's more that I'm more version of feminism is about people having the option to do what it is it feels. Right for them to be. A choice? Yeah. Have the option. Look at this. We're just discovering things as we go.

Kimmy

Yeah, that I think that's really profound I'd. Love to know. If you could Describe the type of feminism that would make it very difficult for another woman to say no to. I think.

Giarne

My understanding of feminism is about choice. The choice to be the kind of woman that you want. To be and to have autonomy about how you're treated in this world. And to me, that doesn't mean it's about hating on another gender. I think it's about pointing out when there are differences, both positive and negative, so don't think. It's fair to go. Hey, he didn't do the thing for me. I made on the flip side, girl, but I got to be treated as a damsel in distress over there, and that was well in my favour. It's about pointing it out and observing it and taking note. And going is this how we want to treat people like kind of consciously being aware of, hey, this thing happened, are we actually OK with that? Guys, can we take note? Can we be aware of what's going on around us and the Community that we're creating, what are we perpetuating that maybe we don't want to be as a society? For me, feminism includes considering the needs of men in that I think it takes a really brave and courageous woman. To be able. To hold the space for a man to have his emotions.

Kimmy

I agree.

Giarne

That there needs to be a place for that in feminism too. That we can't on one side stand up and say, hey, you need to treat me equally and not give the same freedom to men. That doesn't mean you get to treat me less than it doesn't mean I deserve to. Be treated better then? It just means let's consciously take in. How we treat each other?

Kimmy

Yeah, which is my definition of humanism.

Giarne

Maybe I'm a humanist. I think why I would say feminist or humanist, because I think even though there are differences between gender, overwhelmingly what I see is more of a less than for women. That we are disadvantaged more than we're advantage because of gender. So welcome to the feminist club Jimmy. No, it wasn't. It's. Not a convince you to change your opinion, it's actually just a conversation. I love that.

Kimmy

Yeah. No, I. Think we've got a lot of common ground in our beliefs and in what we're hoping for for humans. The reason I like the term humanist is because it it's really positive and humane. It's a humane word. It doesn't involve a fight or an argument. It's very it keeps the focus really positively and it it encompasses all the different ways we can dehumanise. And disadvantage so. You know, we could get rid of the word. Racism or discrimination or sexism?

Giarne

Do you think that's realistic, though? I think that's where I feel like the. Fight comes in even if we go what a beautiful world it. Would be if those things didn't exist.

Kimmy

Just they're still gonna exist. Yeah, but I think because in my brain I like to simplify things and keep things really practical and straight. Like, what are we? What are we pitching for here? And how can we do it in a really peaceful way that doesn't contribute to the anger and and puts us right back and keeps us moving forward. And I just. I feel like if we're all focused on. Treating one another humanely, no matter what the circumstance, is, no matter if someone has a disability that they identify with them, you know, a different sexual orientation or they're from a different culture that we're simply putting the human in front of us.

Giarne

I like it. Yeah, I like it a lot.

Kimmy

Anyway, that's that's my vision for Utopia. That's how I think. That's how. I that's how I strive to live.

Giarne

My life. Yeah, I.

Kimmy

Like that? I don't like the fight involved that I don't like the that feeling of fight, yeah.

Giarne

I kinda do tell me more.

Kimmy

What do you like about it?

Giarne

I feel like it's I feel like in some ways the like it's a validation of an experience too. When I think about some of these times where you know you have people who are really angry and it might be they're really angry about being treated as differently as a person of colour or differently based on their gender. I think that sometimes the fight actually validates their lived experience and that there is. There's trauma, right word.

Kimmy

Like I think some people would.

Giarne

Yeah. And there are, there are women out there who will. Go. You know what? I will. Was assaulted or I was fired or I was discriminated against and so they are angry whilst I go. I agree with you that when there's the fight it takes away like you know if we think about anger, we're not exactly in our logical brain. We're often deep in our emotional brain. So the decisions we make are not going to be our smartest. But I also think in some ways it acknowledges the struggle.

Kimmy

That being seen is important.

Giarne

Yeah, that, that angry and that angry because they're hurt, because they've been treated different for so long and that they need that validated. Is society ever going to be able to give?

Kimmy

Ever. And is the fight the most effective way of having people listen and acknowledge?

Giarne

Ohh, absolutely not, but I understand the fact I understand it. Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense to me that that's why there's still a lot of people that are in that, that anger place. And when the other side and I don't make that size. And the other side denies that there's ever been mistreatment.

Kimmy

That's frustrating. That's a trigger.

Giarne

I had an experience. With I must say friend, because I do think he is a friend, but we have a very different. He's on this where he shared something about that women were biologically intended to not work and that they were the gatherers and the men were the hunters and Oh my God, I was so mad I can only.

Kimmy

Imagine the look on your face. Did you have steam? Yeah, pouring out.

Giarne

The first thing I did was.

Kimmy

Of your face

Giarne

Like I first. I was like, I'm ready to fight I Like and then I Was like, no, that's not the most healthy expression of this. So instead I made a real. And I went and researched all the occasions in history where women were working and how far back that went, and that my job to be led by you while you make me stay at home and don't use my brain is just not ever gonna have the sunshine. And I had conversation with him afterwards. I was like, wow, I was so triggered. And you know what? You triggered me to make some incredible content.
So thank you for that.
And and also we agreed to disagree. I got he was not in any way interested in hearing. What I had to say, and because I was so triggered, I don't think I was interested in his. His comments on it.

Kimmy

Either like. Yeah, you couldn't find any common ground there.

Giarne

Yeah, we could go, you know. What? I respect you enough as a. Friend to.

Kimmy

Go. Let's never talk about this again.

Giarne

To go. Not today. Yeah. Both of us were probably coming from some deep emotions. Like I obviously had some pretty deep emotions about about that, and I think he obviously did too. And so. If you're coming from a place of hurt into that, like you said, the fight, then no one's listening.

Kimmy

Yeah, I wonder what need he has that's underlying his view. Anyway, we can speculate your need. I can hear was autonomy and choice. How dare you? Yeah. Take the choice away from me and my autonomy to used to work.

Giarne

We sure can. And it's interesting you say that because when I say autonomy and choice, I I don't like and I have this with my. Freedom Mama care. Stuff I don't have any dog in the fight as to whether you're a stay at home mom or whether you work for me. It's do you get? A choice in. It and do you feel?

Kimmy

Yeah, I can. Hear that?

Giarne

Free in that choice that you got. To make, yeah, but I. Think the way my trigger is don't. You dare shame me? Don't you dare tell me. I can't.

Speaker

Have the freedom.

Speaker 3

To make my own choices.

Giarne

So when you go to the bottom. Of me what to do? A review.

Kimmy

Yeah, yeah, I think we should. It's. I haven't ruled it out. I'm prepared to not be impressed. I'm. I'm prepared to be really aggrieved by.

Giarne

Yeah, I think. How they're betraying them? Yeah.

Kimmy

And women. Yes. And also people who don't identify as. The yeah, I love female that that really triggers.

Giarne

Me as well. There's only a binary option provided, yeah.

Kimmy

Yeah, I feel a little offended. By that, yeah. Yeah. I just feel like really in today's society can be still doing that really. So I almost have decided not to watch it because of that. But I will watch.
It because of you, yeah. And then we'll discuss.

Giarne

It, yes, an episode from a later day.

Kimmy

Yeah, great conversation.

Giarne

Thank you.